Hi my names Graham. I’ve suffered with Gyno for most of my adult life. Even when I’ve lost a ton of weight , those two unhelpful bags of fat are still there. To save me 4 to 6 grand on liposuction or surgery, will an estrogen blocker and testosterone booster help. I’ve also heard of a cream called andractim that can help , but they are expensive. Any advice would be great . Thanks.
Vitamin D3. Vitamin D3 actually isn’t a vitamin, it’s a hormone — a really important hormone that provides a whole host of health benefits. Our bodies can naturally make vitamin D from the sun, but recent studies have shown that many Westerners are vitamin D3 deprived because we’re spending less and less time outdoors. When we do decide to venture outside, we slather our bodies with sunscreen, which prevents the sun reaching our skin to kick-off vitamin D3 production. If you’re not getting enough sun, you may have a vitamin D3 deficiency, which may contribute to low T levels. If you think you need more vitamin D3, supplement it with a pill. Studies have shown that men who take this supplement see a boost in their testosterone levels. Because I have a darker complexion — which makes me prone to Vitamin D3 deficiency — I took 4,000 IU of vitamin D3 in the morning.

However, studies have found that social success among men is actually linked with high testosterone levels. For example, teenage boys who were perceived as socially adept and dominant had higher levels of testosterone than boys that were low on the totem pole. What’s even more interesting is that this same study found that teenage boys who had a history of being anti-social and displaying high physical aggression were found to have lower testosterone levels at age 13 compared with boys with no history of high physical aggression.
And the ads have been working: The number of prescriptions written for testosterone have skyrocketed by more than 300 percent since 2001, reaching 7.2 million in 2013, according to a report published in 2016. Another study, published in JAMA in 2017, found that between 2009 and 2013, testosterone testing and treatment rose substantially in areas of the U.S. where such ads were very common.
Ashwagandha is shown to be effective at reducing cortisol which in turn helps with testosterone production. There are also numerous studies showing the effects on improving testosterone in infertile men (ref 80).  If you are using the Aggressive Strength product you don't need to supplement with ashwagandha as it's included in the test booster formula. Likewise if you're using Tian Chi (my daily herb drink).
If you're a man who's experiencing symptoms such as decreased sex drive, erectile dysfunction, depressed mood, and difficulties with concentration and memory, and you think low testosterone may be to blame, you can have your levels tested. Since testosterone levels fluctuate throughout the day, you'll probably need more than a blood test to get a true picture of your levels.
For this reason I recommend doing your own research on this supplement before taking it. 5g of ground up dried powder is what was used in the studies. I recommend taking 1-2 capsules of the concentrated form from Paradise Herbs. Alternatively, the Aggressive Strength Test Booster also has MP in its formula so you may prefer to use that blend instead. 
Ashwagandha: One of the hottest herbs out there right now, this adaptogen packs a one-two punch. First, it helps the body fight off stress: According to one Indian Journal of Psychological Medicine study, ashwagandha has a cortisol-lowering effect—a major benefit to anyone who wants their body to be more T-friendly. And, second, it can also support your T-boosting training efforts. One Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition study, for example, found that men who supplemented with ashwagandha saw significantly greater strength and T gains after eight weeks of resistance training than those who took a placebo.
I was born with a rare genetic disorder called Klinefelter’s syndrome. My parents actually were known about my condition prior to birth. I’m 25 years old and have been on TRT since 8th grade. It’s a permanent part of life and essential to ultimate happiness, motivation, and the pursuit of bigger and better things. I currently face problems at this time in life due to the endocrinologists. It seems when I bring a problem or question to them, they don’t take charge and figure it out. There all pushed off to the side and left for no one; so now I’ve gotten rid of them and I’m in pursuit of a doctor who will improve the quality of my life. Also with my last doctor I was able to retrieve enough testosterone to perform my out ethical experiment with Testosterone. I injected myself every 5 days for a period of 3 months at the dosage of .75ml. The outcome was amazing. My mind, body, and spirit were one. The energy was phenomenal and in demand. I was able to pursue my endeavors with the energy provided, I was able to think about running and exercising and then put that thought into action. I took extensive notes in the form of a journal to create the ultimate needed dosage for myself. The only reason it ended in three months, was due to no more medicine. It had to be done. Now I’m off to find a doctor to work with me.
Researchers found that the simple act ‘expressing power through open, expansive postures’ (i.e. standing up straight and proud) can increase Testosterone and decrease cortisol (58), along with improving feelings of power and tolerance for risk. Easy! Your mother was right – don’t slouch. This could be a handy trick before making a speech or going on a date!
Because clomiphene citrate is not approved by the FDA for use in men, little information exists about the long-term effects of taking it (including the risk of developing prostate cancer) or whether it is more effective at boosting testosterone than exogenous formulations. But unlike exogenous testosterone, clomiphene citrate preserves — and possibly enhances — sperm production. That makes drugs like clomiphene citrate one of only a few choices for men with low testosterone who want to father children.

Hacking your testosterone influences everything from body composition to energy levels to mood. It’s easy to eat more butter; it’s hard to visit a doctor and get tested, but that’s what I recommend: know your levels. If you’re 25, you’ll know what your target is when you’re 35. By the time you’ve noticed symptoms of low testosterone, it’s too late to get your “normal” measurements!
I am generally dubious about supplement claims & have tried a few other Testosterone boosters which had no effect I could tell. Being desperate to find something to help me feel better, I ordered Dr Martin's T Booster. It arrived on May 14th and after the first day I felt better & noticeably had more energy. I don't have that tired dead feeling every morning now when trying to get out of bed. I am able to do some work & physical activities without being exhausted to the point of being sick. I have been taking Dr Martin's T-Booster for 8 days now. While I am not out running marathons yet, I am feeling much better & hope to continue getting better as I keep taking it
Hi my names Graham. I’ve suffered with Gyno for most of my adult life. Even when I’ve lost a ton of weight , those two unhelpful bags of fat are still there. To save me 4 to 6 grand on liposuction or surgery, will an estrogen blocker and testosterone booster help. I’ve also heard of a cream called andractim that can help , but they are expensive. Any advice would be great . Thanks.
A: There are no over-the-counter products approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to increase testosterone levels. There are several prescription medication options available. Please consult with your health care provider in regards to your testosterone levels and to determine which treatment option best meets your individual needs. For more specific information, consult with your doctor or pharmacist for guidance based on your health status and current medications, particularly before taking any action. Kristen Dore, PharmD
I just started TRT gel. On the first day I noticed an improvement in my awareness/energy level. This is now day three and I feel much better. Before I was tired and lacked the mental clarity I now feel. I have not yet noticed and increase in my libido but I think it is improving. Probably need the stimulation from my fiancé and more time to get my T levels up. Before I started the gel, total T levels were 450, and then 500+. I went to an Integrative MD who suggested Free T. That level was low and my SBGH was 100 (high). I then went to an NP who ordered the Free T. She referred me to an Endocrinologist. She along with her Attending interviewed me and decided to prescribe. They asked if I wanted the gel or the injections. I opted for the gel. I will wait and see how the gel works. So far so good.
Dr. Resnick and colleagues assessed 788 participants in the cognitive function arm of the TTrials but focused on the 493 participants who were classified as having age-associated memory impairment with a confirmation of both subjective and objective indicators of cognitive decline. The authors detected no significant effect after 1 year of testosterone treatment on either the primary outcome of verbal memory, as measured by delayed paragraph recall or on any of the secondary outcomes of visual memory, executive function, and spatial ability.1

You may find this hard to believe, but some common breakfast foods like Kellogg’s corn flakes and Graham crackers were invented 100 years ago to lower male libido. Kellogg and Graham believed that male sexual desire was the root of society’s problems, so they set out to make bland foods that would take away libido (this is absolutely true; look it up). That low fat, grain-based thing absolutely works wonders for lowering testosterone.
Men on long-term testosterone appear to have a higher risk of cardiovascular problems, like heart attacks, strokes, and deaths from heart disease. For example, in 2010, researchers halted the Testosterone in Older Men study when early results showed that men on hormone treatments had noticeably more heart problems. "In older men, theoretical cardiac side effects become a little more immediate," Dr. Pallais says.
during therapy. It is very hard to find a local endo who is thinking with his head vs complying with old trt programs. I tool clomid in the past to see what it would do and it elevated my t level to 520 in 2 weeks from low 220. Aromason will do same but clomid is more potent. Not sure what the long effect would be since you tend to get bit moody on clomid after 2 months. LH is also being affected in negative way since the lh receptors can burn out to a degree. I will contact the trt clinic in order to start my trt as they have much more experience with these things.

Osteoporosis refers to pathological loss of bone density and strength. It is an important condition due to its prevalence and association with bone fractures; most commonly of the hip, vertebra and forearm. Men are relatively protected from the development of osteoporosis by a higher peak bone mass compared with women (Campion and Maricic 2003). Furthermore, women lose bone at an accelerated rate immediately following the menopause. Nevertheless, men start to lose bone mass during early adult life and experience an increase in the rate of bone loss with age (Scopacasa et al 2002). Women of a given age have a higher prevalence of osteoporosis in comparison to men but the prevalence increases with age in both sexes. As a result, men have a lower incidence of osteoporotic fractures than women of a given age but the gap between the sexes narrows with advancing age (Chang et al 2004) and there is evidence that hip fractures in men are associated with greater mortality than in women (Campion and Maricic 2003).
Sexual dysfunction and low libido are among the most easily reversible symptoms of hypogonadism. Systematic reviews of randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trials of testosterone in men, including older men (aged 60 years and over) and middle-aged men, with sexual dysfunction and hypogonadism have shown large favourable effects on libido and moderate effects on satisfaction with erectile function.1-5 In men who do not respond sufficiently to testosterone therapy alone, the combination of phosphodiesterase 5-inhibitors and testosterone may be indicated, as there are suggestions that the combination may be synergistic.1
In accordance with sperm competition theory, testosterone levels are shown to increase as a response to previously neutral stimuli when conditioned to become sexual in male rats.[40] This reaction engages penile reflexes (such as erection and ejaculation) that aid in sperm competition when more than one male is present in mating encounters, allowing for more production of successful sperm and a higher chance of reproduction.

Results from the clinical trial demonstrated that there were significant increases in hemoglobin in both men with unexplained anemia as well as men with anemia from known causes who used the testosterone gel. These results may be of clinical value, and testosterone treatment could be used to boost hemoglobin levels in men more than 65 who have unexplained anemia and low testosterone. However, more research needs to be done.


I have had BPH for years. Am in early 60s and recently had a 12 site prostate biopsy after a very slow rise of PSA to 4.5 (over a period of 10 years). There were two sites with PIN (one with outpouching and one was focal). Have been on various form of test replacement…changing methods periodically from test cyp IM, or SQ, with and without HCG or HCG alone. I want to continue a very low dose of either HCG or Test Cyp (10-20mg twice/week). What are your thoughts?

Testosterone boosters are used by many athletes worldwide to achieve a significant muscle mass increase within a short period of time.[1] However; one cannot be completely confident in terms of the quality and efficacy of such products because of several reasons, such as the possibility of bad storage conditions and originating from an unreliable source. Over the years, some consumers of testosterone boosters have complained of kidney and liver abnormalities that could be linked to their use of boosters.[10] Cases of erroneous product administration have occurred in the past as athletes may not follow the instructions on the label fully, which can lead to many side effects.[11] In the present case, a man was admitted to a hospital because of a severe abdominal pain. The pain was later found to be caused by liver injury. The diagnosis confirmed that the levels of the key hepatic enzymes were markedly elevated. The medical complications observed were found to have occurred following the consumption of two courses of a commercial testosterone booster. According to researchers based in the US, about 13% of the annual cases of acute liver failure are attributable to idiosyncratic drug- and/or supplement-induced liver injury.[12] Marked increase in the levels of ALT, AST, and gamma-glutamyl transferase was observed after consuming the first course of the commercial testosterone booster, and they started to decline after the 2nd and 3rd course. This abruptly increases the levels of liver enzymes after the first course may be attributed to the interruption effect of commercial testosterone booster on liver function as a result of the effects of its ingredients.
A: According to the NIH, normal values for testosterone levels in men can range from 300 to 1,200ng/dL. There can be many different causes of low testosterone including age, diseases, accidents, and medications. Symptoms of low testosterone may include: loss of sex drive, erectile dysfunction, depressed mood, and difficulty concentrating. Low testosterone levels may also bring around body changes including: hair loss, decrease in blood cells possibly leading to anemia, fragile bones, and a decrease in muscle mass. There are different testosterone replacement therapies including patches, such as Androderm; gels, such as Androgel and Testim; and injections, such as testosterone cypionate. Only your health care provider can decide if and what kind of testosterone replacement therapy is appropriate for you. Testosterone replacement therapy is not right for everyone. Patient with certain prostate issues or breast cancer should not take testosterone. For more specific information, consult with your doctor for guidance based on your health status and current medications, particularly before taking any action. Kristen Dore, PharmD
Testosterone may fight depression. If you’ve been battling the black dog of depression, it may be because of low testosterone levels. Researchers have found that men suffering from depression typically have deficient testosterone levels. While scientists haven’t been able to figure out whether it’s low testosterone that causes depression or if depression causes low T levels, preliminary research has shown that some men suffering depression report improvement in mood and other factors of depression after undergoing doctor-directed testosterone treatments.
Looking at the ingredients and we see that they used a nice dose of D-Aspartic Acid which we have already talked about how much we like that. They also used a good dose of Fenugreek which boosts testosterone and enhances libido as well as Ginseng Extract which is a natural aphrodisiac. They also use Zinc Gluconate which is a solid testosterone booster and also has shown to be a bit of an aphrodisiac itself.
My last injection was November 2017 and i decided to rest for a quarter and see what the impact is. My energy and muscle tone has definitely dropped but I don’t have back acne, sour sweat and I sleep better. In my case anyway I feel like my T is being regulated lower. I turn up the heat and T , my body turns up the aircon which suppresses the T. I can’t find any discussion on correlation between temperature/climate and T anywhere but given that we all live in climate controlled environments now seems worthy of some study.
In addition to weightlifting, studies have shown that HIIT workouts can also help boost testosterone levels. For those of you who don’t know, HIIT stands for high-intensity interval training. It calls for short, intense bursts of exercise, followed by a less-intense recovery period. You repeat with the intense/less-intense cycle several times throughout the workout. In addition to increasing T, HIIT has been shown to improve athletic conditioning and fat metabolism, as well as increase muscle strength.
Falling in love decreases men's testosterone levels while increasing women's testosterone levels. There has been speculation that these changes in testosterone result in the temporary reduction of differences in behavior between the sexes.[53] However, it is suggested that after the "honeymoon phase" ends—about four years into a relationship—this change in testosterone levels is no longer apparent.[53] Men who produce less testosterone are more likely to be in a relationship[54] or married,[55] and men who produce more testosterone are more likely to divorce;[55] however, causality cannot be determined in this correlation. Marriage or commitment could cause a decrease in testosterone levels.[56] Single men who have not had relationship experience have lower testosterone levels than single men with experience. It is suggested that these single men with prior experience are in a more competitive state than their non-experienced counterparts.[57] Married men who engage in bond-maintenance activities such as spending the day with their spouse/and or child have no different testosterone levels compared to times when they do not engage in such activities. Collectively, these results suggest that the presence of competitive activities rather than bond-maintenance activities are more relevant to changes in testosterone levels.[58]
My genetic make-up is 47XXY. I was diagnosed in September, 1976, and have been on some kind of T-therapy since – injections, pills, gels, patches, pellets, now back on injections. At this time, now, I inject 1/2cc deep IM, every 7-8 days. I suffered a blood clot between my knee and my groin (right leg) in January, 2017. I am now on Eliquis through June, 2017. My blood has always been quick to coagulate. I’ve read through all of this, and only found mention of blood clots sporadically in relation to T-therapy. I’m 70 yoa, have never had a problem before. Can you give me any info I can pass along to my doctor? Thank you.
Also, due to the intake of these synthetic substances, men start behaving in a very excited way, as well as demonstrate high levels of aggression and even violence. So, the men’s behavior may be antisocial. In addition, the men will experience breast enlargement and testicular shrinkage. The other adverse effects include hypertension, tumor growth, heart attacks and strokes, as well as development of liver disorders. It’s obvious that the numerous dangers of steroid use far outweigh a few benefits which they bring.
Testosterone fluctuates according to age and life circumstance, often plummeting at the onset of parenthood, and spiking (for some) during moments of triumph. Romantic relationships, too, can impact a person’s testosterone production; though the reasons are still not fully understood, entering a relationship tends to increase women’s testosterone levels, while decreasing men’s. Since males produce significantly more testosterone than females—about 20 times more each day—females can be more sensitive to these fluctuations. High levels of testosterone, particularly in men, have been correlated with a greater likelihood of getting divorced or engaging in extramarital affairs, though a causal link has not been established.

The sex hormone testosterone is far more than just the stuff of the alpha male's swagger. Though it plays a more significant role in the life of the biological male, it is actually present in both sexes to some degree. Despite popular perceptions that testosterone primarily controls aggression and sex drive—although it does play a role in both of those things—research has shown that individual levels of testosterone are also correlated with our language skills and cognitive abilities. Testosterone occurs in the body naturally, but can be administered as a medication, too: its most common uses are in the treatment of hypogonadism and breast cancer, as well as in hormone therapy for transgender men.
The potential downside of this positive feedback loop, Coates argues, is that testosterone levels can eventually surge past optimal levels and have the opposite effect – leading to overconfidence and poor decision-making. When this happens to animals, Coates, observed, they “go out in the open, pick too many fights [and] patrol areas that are too large…Risk taking becomes risky behaviour.”
In addition, the gel forms of testosterone, applied under your arm or on your upper arm and shoulder, can be transferred to others if you don’t wash the area after applying it. Children exposed to the hormone have experienced enlargement of the penis or clitoris, growth of pubic hair, increased libido, and aggressive behavior. Women can experience acne and the growth of body hair and, if they are pregnant or breastfeeding, can transfer the hormone to their babies.
“The Andro 400 has been a plus to my daily requirements of energy, stamina and weight loss. I have seen a noticeable reduction in my waistline from a 40" waist to a 37" waist. I am 6'6" and weighed 252, I now weigh 238 and feel much better. Without too much information, my sex drive and performance has been positively enhanced with greater sensitivity and stamina during those intimate times with my wife. Greater sensation, pleasure and results are evident.”
2009 had heart attack, placed coronary stent, everything okay. Put on statins to keep lipid levels down to prevent further artery blockage. One year later developed Peyronie’s disease, low sex drive, fatigue, testicles withdrawn and hurting. Testosterone level was 85. Diagnosed with hypogonadism. Started Androgel, felt normal after a couple of weeks. I believe statins is the cause of my low T, you need lipids for hormone transport. Androgel could only bring my T level in the 250 range. Switched to Axiron (better, less messy), and my T level stays around 500 range. I get samples of Testim every now and then, it has a manly woody fragrance that women like. At present, I’m feeling a little fatigue, and mild dehydration. My lab work is always normal, except my red blood cells is always on the high side, almost abnormal. Next week I am going to donate some blood, to bring my RBC count down, and see if that will help.
It goes without saying that a healthy diet, quality sleep, productive lifestyle, and regular exercises can contribute to the overall increase of testosterone. However, it is also true that these activities are very often not enough for guys who have the problems with naturally low testosterone levels. This situation also includes people who want to boost their existing testosterone levels.
46 year old whose suffered with low libido and all the related symptoms for over a decade. Finally had the courage to have a frank talk with dr. and urologist. Testosterone level 165, free testos level 3.6. Re-doing blood work again just to be sure in the next week or so, and will post updates then as things progress. Normal ranges are 300-1200 and 6 to 12.
To find the best testosterone booster, we collected every supplement available on BodyBuilding.com, and cross-checked our list against the top results on best of lists like MensFitness, BroScience, and BodyNutrition. We only looked at pills since some of the ingredients in testosterone boosters have a reputation for tasting bad, and powders just prolong the experience. There are a lot — 133 of them to be precise — and they all claim to boost testosterone levels. Testosterone (for men) is “thought to regulate sex drive (libido), bone mass, fat distribution, muscle mass and strength, and the production of red blood cells and sperm.” If a supplement can increase your natural testosterone levels, the rest should follow. As we mentioned above, it’s not that simple, and at best, you’ll experience only a short-lived boost.
Proprietary blends are a growing problem in the supplement industry. This is where mix many ingredients together and list it on the label as a blend. The problem with this is you have no idea how much of each of those ingredients you are getting. Complete transparency is best so the customer knows what they are getting and it also helps limit side-effects.
When I was using the gel my testicles also shrank a bit, but not anywhere near this amount. And when I stopped using the gel they plumbed back up again to their former size. It took some time but their size came back. This may be an issue for the younger guys, but I think most older guys can easily handle this as no big deal, because overall it’s not.
Ginger (also known as Zingiber officinale, family: Zingiberaceae) has been widely consumed as a dietary spice, delicacy, and as a traditional oriental medicine. The rhizome can be used fresh, dried or powdered. Ginger is often applied for treating nausea due to caused by morning sickness during pregnancy, chemotherapy and seasickness. The ginger rhizome also contains several biologically active compounds such as gingerol, shogaols, gingerdiol and gingerdione [22].
TT may help you but it may have adverse (harmful) results. (See discussion of these side effects below.) The Federal Drug Administration (FDA) has said that testosterone drug labels should state that there is a risk for heart disease and stroke for some men using testosterone products. All men should be checked for heart disease and stroke before, and periodically while on, TT. The AUA however, on careful review of evidence-based peer review literature, has stated that there is no strong evidence that TT either increases or decreases the risk of cardiovascular events.
I was reading in the university health news daily website that a study performed by researchers at the University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center found that men with prostate cancer who ate 3 tablespoons of milled or ground flax seeds each day had decreased prostate cancer cell proliferation compared to similar men who did not eat flax seeds. According to the American Cancer Society, men who supplement their diets with flax seed have lower PSA levels and slower growth of benign as well as cancerous prostate cells.
Vitamin D3: Vitamin D3 is actually more hormone than it is a vitamin. Vitamin D is taken in by around 10% of our diets and D3 is mostly absorbed from the sun, which can be linked to greater testosterone production. The link between the two is a result from the luteinizing hormone playing its role. Read more about how vitamin D3 effects testosterone — the evidence is staggering.
Gary Womble… Get out of here with your quackery nonsense. No one likes trolls that want to push diet and weight loss pills as a serious solution to low t and ED. Anyone who reads your comment will waste at least 20 seconds of their life. What’s worse, they might listen to you instead of getting real medical advice that might actually help with an issue that is devastating to their lifestyle. And btw, before you decide to respond to this with more quackery, testimonials or fake research, know that I am a pharmaceutical scientist and won’t fall for your bogus statements
"I am only 10 weeks into taking your product and I have lost 12 pounds and three inches from my waist. Normally I scoff at radio or TV ads promising results like this. But in this case, my results have far exceeded my expectations. My energy level has increased and my appetite has decreased! All this without any extra exercise program. Thanks from a very satisfied customer!"

Produced primarily by the testicles, testosterone is the hormone responsible for developing male sexual traits and maintaining muscle mass, bone density and red blood cell levels. Testosterone levels peak in adolescence and early adulthood then begin to decline with age, typically at a rate of 1 to 2 percent per year after age 30. Testosterone levels influence physical, emotional and sexual well being, with higher testosterone generally having a favorable effect on attitude and performance. Though increasing testosterone can have benefits, changes to testosterone levels can affect hormonal production elsewhere in the endocrine system, so consult a doctor prior to attempting to raise your testosterone.
This is one of the most controversial recommendations I make, but it shouldn’t be. It’s no different than using thyroid medication. If your levels are low, and the other techniques here don’t work, use TRT. You will like your life again. If your levels are low, bioidentical testosterone will make you live longer and better, provided you use it right.
Recently, a panel with cooperation from international andrology and urology societies, published specific recommendations with regard to the diagnosis of Late-onset Hypogonadism (Nieschlag et al 2005). These are summarized in the following text. It is advised that at least two serum testosterone measurements, taken before 11 am on different mornings, are necessary to confirm the diagnosis. The second sample should also include measurement of gonadotrophin and prolactin levels, which may indicate the need for further investigations for pituitary disease. Patients with serum total testosterone consistently below 8 nmol/l invariably demonstrate the clinical syndrome of hypogonadism and are likely to benefit from treatment. Patients with serum total testosterone in the range 8–12 nmol/l often have symptoms attributable to hypogonadism and it may be decided to offer either a clinical trial of testosterone treatment or to make further efforts to define serum bioavailable or free testosterone and then reconsider treatment. Patients with serum total testosterone persistently above 12 nmol/l do not have hypogonadism and symptoms are likely to be due to other disease states or ageing per se so testosterone treatment is not indicated.
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